ΑΙΡΕΥΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΝ ΑΝΤΙ ΑΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΑΡΙΣΤΟΙ ΚΛΕΟΣ ΑΕΝΑΟΝ ΘΝΗΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΔΕ ΠΟΛΛΟΙ ΚΕΚΟΡΗΝΤΑΙ ΟΚΩΣΠΕΡ ΚΤΗΝΕΑ
The best choose one thing in exchange for all, ever flowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.
μηνιν αειδε θεα Πηληιαδεω Αχιληοs ουλομενην
Teleklos Archelaou,ειδωλον,Senior Member
The Greek Voicemod has been stagnant for far too long. I don’t really expect it to be created now by getting this started here, but nothing else has ever worked either, so why not try it…
So, what does it require? Could it work for other mods? What needs to be done? Well, the words are already laid out for the battlefield commands. The pronunciation guide is laid out also. What is needed now is someone or some multiple people who have (1) the ability to pronounce the words correctly and in an appropriate accent and with an appropriate level of acting/voicing, (2) the ability to record these commands, which are shouted and sometimes could raise considerable alarm if you are in certain places, and to record them in the proper file format with a good microphone, and (3) someone to organize them properly. Now the first stage rules out someone like me. Though I can pronounce the words, I cant act for crap and since English is my native language, my accent just is not very good at all for this. Native speakers of English probably just won’t do as most attempts and submissions so far have shown. Further, a modern Greek pronunciation (and this is sure to ruffle feathers) just isn’t good enough. There are vowel and consonant changes that have taken place in the last two thousand years. Still, a Greek who can actually do the ancient pronunciations and who can act them out well and who has a good microphone would be perfect. Finally, getting them into the proper sound file formats and edited to the same volume level and all of that is something I’m entirely uncapable of helping with – plus my internet connection is very very slow, so I can’t listen to them all easily. I don’t know what format is needed either, or any of the technical stuff on that end. But I’m willing to help with any of the other stuff.
What I have posted here are just the battle commands. This would work with any mod. The unit naming is more complicated though – as EB is different obviously from vanilla and other mods. But I’d be happy to give Greek versions of other units if they were posted, and if there is some good movement here, I’ll finish off the Greek list for EB too. If no one is interested I won’t worry with it either though. I would also be available to put the strat map commands up too if there is some movement in realizing this.
So, is there any interest in this? EB would certainly share this with any other mod at all if we could just get this done.
Greek Battle Commands for Rome: Total War Voicemod Project
I have included some variation in the samples of three, often trying to stick to the variation in the original files, but sometimes using a different verb with the same meaning. It is up to you to decide whether or not you would rather use just one and vary the emphasis or whether you would rather use samples with different vocabulary. Also, in many places, λόχοι can be substituted for τάξεις (provided there is no adjective modifying it, since it would be feminine also). Both are generic terms for “units”, and I have not been able to find that either would be preferred.
On the pronuciation of letters in ancient Greek:
The pronunciation of Ancient Greek varied much according to time and place, and differed in many important respects from that of the modern language.
α (short): as a in German hat. There is no true short a in accented syllables in English; the a of idea, aha is a neutral vowel. Also as o in top.
α (long): as a in father.
ε: as e in bonte; somewhat similar is a in bakery.
η: as e in fete, or nearly as e in where.
ι: nearly as the first e in meteor, eternal.
ο: as o in French mot, somewhat like unaccented o in obey or phonetic (as often sounded).
ω: as o in French encore or as in English paw.
υ: was originally sounded as u in prune, but by the fifth century had become like that of French tu. It never had in Attic the sound of u in mute.
αι: as in Cairo or high [NOTE]
αυ: as in ou in out or how
ηυ: as ēh’-oo
ει: as in vein or they
ευ: as e (met) + oo (moon)
ωυ: as ōh’-oo
οι: as in soil or boy
ου: as in ourang or fool
υι: as in French huit
Sometimes the letter ι (iota) is written under a vowel, e.g., ῃ, ᾳ, ῳ and when written it is called iota subscript. In classical Greek the iota was written on the line after the vowel and was pronounced as a short iota. Its pronunciation ceased in post-classical Greek.
β = b
γ = g (but if it is found before γ, κ, μ, ξ, χ then it is pronounced as English ng)
δ = d
ζ = sd (as in wisdom)
θ = t-h (not th) as in pot, when emphatically pronounced
κ = k
λ = l
μ = m
ν = n
ξ = x = ks
π = p
ρ = r (rolled or trilled)
σ or ς = s (as in sing, but as z before β, γ, δ, μ)
τ = t
φ = p-h (not ph or f) as in top, when emphatically pronounced
χ = k-h (not ch) as in kit, when emphatically pronounced
ψ = ps
λλ, μμ, ππ, σς, ττ all should be held approximately twice as long as the single consonant.
γγ though is pronounced as -ng.
On the pronunciation of phi (φ) and theta (θ) (or why we must use aspirated plosives and not fricatives):
From Vox Graeca: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek by W. Sidney Allen 1974 Cambridge.
The evidence thus seems conclusive that in 5 c. Attic φ, θ, χ represented plosives (as π, τ, κ) and NOT fricatives (as ς, or as φ, θ, χ in modern Greek). The continuation of the plosive pronunciation into a later period is shown by the fact that Latin renders Greek φ at first as a simple p, later as ph (e.g. Pilipus, Philippus), but never in classical Latin times as f, which would have been appropriate for a fricative pronunciation… However, there is no doubt that, as modern Greek shows, the aspirated plosives did eventually change to fricatives. Evidence is sometimes quoted which would suggest that the beginnings of such a change could be traced to the 2 c. B.C…. With one problematic exception the first clear evidence for a fricative pronunciation comes from the 1 c. A.D. in Pompeian spellings such as Dafne (= Δάφνη)… From the 2 c. A.D. the representation of φ by Latin f becomes common, and Latin grammarians have to give rules when to spell with f and when with ph… It may be that a scholarly pronunciation of φ, θ, χ as plosives continued for some time in the schools… There is even possibly some evidence that the plosive pronunciation continued in the schools up to the time when the Glagolitic alphabet was formed in the 9 c. for the writing of Old Church Slavonic.
(I have included some variation in the samples of three, often trying to stick to the variation in the original files, but sometimes using a different verb with the same meaning. It is up to you to decide whether or not you would rather use just one and vary the emphasis or whether you would rather use samples with different vocabulary. Also, in many places, λόχοι can be substituted for τάξεις (provided there is no adjective modifying it, since it would be feminine also). Both are generic terms for “units”, and I have not been able to find that either would be preferred.)
Greek_General_1_Group_Created (when creating group) – 3 samples
Group created 1 – τάξεις συνάγετε!; ἡ τάξις (squadron, body of soldiers; plural used here)
Group created 2 – τάξεις, συντάσσετε! (συντασσω – just a different verb, same meaning)
Greek_General_1_Group_Disbanded (ungrouping a grouped unit) – 3 samples
Group disband 1 – τήν τάξιν καταλύετε! (literally: ”the group (direct object) disband!”)
Group disband 2 – τήν τάξιν διαλύετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Drop (drop equipment like ladders, towers, artillery) – 3 samples
Group drop 1 – τάξεις, μεθίετε τήν παρασκευήν! (”units! let go of the equipment!”)
Group drop 2 – τάξεις, καταβάλλετε τήν παρασκευήν! (different verb for “drop”, though also a present plural imperative)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Cavalry_First_3_Li nes – 3 samples
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 1 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 2 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 3 – ἱππῆς, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Cavalry_Screen – 3 samples
Group Form Cav Screen 1 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε τό πρόβλημα! (”form up the defensive screen!”)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Column – 3 samples
Group Form Column 1 – τάξεις, τάσσετε ὀρθίαι! (literally “form up straight!”)
Group Form Column 2 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐπὶ κέρως! (strangely enough, επι κερως literally means “in a horn” and meant the wings of the army, *but* was used to mean forming in a column, not a line)
Group Form Column 3 – τάξεις, ὄρθιοι λόχοι!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Double_Line – 3 samples
Group Form Double Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐν διπλοῖς στίχοις! (”form up in double lines”)
Group Form Double Line 2 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῦν στίχον! (”form the double line”)
Group Form Double Line 3 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῠν στίχον! (repeated from #2)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Foot_First_3_Lines – 3 samples
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 1 – πεζοί, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 2 – πεζοί, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 3 – πεζοί, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Missile_First_3_li nes – 3 samples
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 1 – τοξόται, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 2 – τοξόται, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 3 – τοξόται, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Single_Line – 3 samples
Group Form Single Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε μετωπηδόν!
Group Form Single Line 2 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐφ’ ἑνός! (Xenophon)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Sorted_Double_Line – 3 samples
Group Form Double Line 1 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῠν στίχον ἐπιτηδές. (not easy to say arrange by arrangement!, but this means ”Units, form the double line designedly (adv., or ”advantageously” – the way most useful!)!)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Sorted_Line – 3 samples
Group Form Sorted Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε μετωπηδὸν ἐπιτηδές.
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Attack – 3 samples
Group Attack 1 – τάξεις, εἰσβάλλετε!
Group Attack 2 – τάξεις, προσπίπτετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Attack_Fast (mass charge) – 3 samples
Group Attack Fast 1 – τάξεις, ὡς τάχιστα εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Halt – 3 samples
Group Halt 1 – τάξεις, ἀποπαύετε! (or παύετε!)
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Missile_Attack – 3 samples
Group Missile Attack 1 – τοξόται, εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Missile_Attack_Fast – 3 samples
Group Missle Attack Fast 1 – τοξόται, ταχέως εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Move – 3 samples
Group Movement 1 – τάξεις, εξίτε! (Xenophon)
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Move_Fast – 3 samples
Group Movement Fast 1 – τάξεις, εξίτε θοῶς!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Rally – 3 samples
Group Rally 1 – τάξεις, συστρέφετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Retreat – 3 samples
Group Retreat 1 – τάξεις, ὑποστρέφετε! or ἀνάγετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select – 3 samples
Group Select 1 – τάξεις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Cavalry – 3 samples
Group Select Cavalry 1 – ἱππῆς!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Engines (siege machines) – 3 samples
Group Select Engines 1 – μηχάνηματα!
Group Select Engines 2 – μηχαναῖ!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Infantry – 3 samples
Group Select Infantry 1 – πεζοί!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Missiles – 3 samples
Group Select Missles 1 – τοξόται!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Cantabrian_Off (cantabrian circle)
Group Cantabrian Off 1 – ἱπποτοξόται, ἀποπαύετε κυκλούμενων! (Horse-archers, disengage from encircling!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Cantabrian_On (cantabrian circle)
Group Cantabrian On 1 – ἱπποτοξόται, κυκλοῦσθε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Engage_At_Will_Off – 3 samples
Group Engage At Will Off 1 – μένετε κέλευσματα ἐμοῦ!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Engage_At_Will_On – 3 samples
Group Engage At Will On 1 – συμβάλλετε ἑκουσίως!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Fire_At_Will_Off – 3 samples
Group Fire At Will Off 1 – τάξεις, ἀποπαύετε εἰσβαλλόντων!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Fire_At_Will_On – 3 samples
Group Fire At Will On 1 – τάξεις, εἰσβάλλετε ἑκουσίως! (Units, attack at will!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Flaming_Off (projectiles) – 3 samples
Group Flaming Off 1 – τάξεις, κατασβεννύτω τό πῦρ! (Units, put out the fire!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Flaming_On (projectiles) – 3 samples
Group Flaming On 1 – τάξεις, ἅπτετε βέλεα! (Units, light projectiles!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Formation_Loose – 3 samples
Group Formation Loose 1 – διά πεταννύτω!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Formation_Tight – 3 samples
Group Formation Tight 1 – συνάγετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Guard_Off – 3 samples
Group Guard Off 1 – οὐ μένετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Guard_On (straighten ranks, hold position) – 3 samples
Group Guard On 1 – μένετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Phalanx_Off – 3 samples
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Phalanx_On – 3 samples
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Skirmish_Off (hold ground) – 3 samples
μένετε κέλευσματα ἐμοῦ!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Skirmish_On – 3 samples
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Testudo_Off (latin: ‘ex testudine’) – 3 samples
ἀποπαύετε τήν χελώνην!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Testudo_On – 3 samples
τάσσετε τήν χελώνην!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Wedge_Off – 3 samples
τάσσετε τό ἔμβολον!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Wedge_On – 3 samples
ἀποπαύετε τοῦ ἔμβολου!
Greek_General_1_Individual_Celebrate (victory, etc) – 3 samples
General Celebration 1 – ἐτιμήσαμεν! (We have conquered!)
Greek_General_1_Individual_Charge – 3 samples
General Charge 1 – προσβάλλετε! (plural) or προσβάλλε! (sing.)
Greek_General_1_Individual_Confirm (yes) – 3 samples
General Confirm 1 – ναί!
General Confirm 2 – πάνυ γε!
General Confirm 3 – μάλιστα γε!
Greek_General_1_Individual_Retreat (5) – 5 samples
General Retreat 1 – ἀνακαλήτω τῇ σάλπιγγι!
or General Retreat 1 – ἀποχώρετε!
Greek_General_1_Individual_Taunt (4 taunts) – 4 samples
General Taunt 1 – βάρβαροι!
General Taunt 2 – βαρβαρικοῖ σκύλακες! (Barbarian dogs!)
Master of Puppets,Member /2003
After playing 0.8 as Makedonia and listening the voicemod product Im left with a bizzare feeling of deep query:
1st Are the spanish and portuguese Greek? Cause my Greek ancestors supposedly spoke a mix of spanish and portuguese….
2nd I have 2 questions:
a. Either the Greek academic community is right and everyone outside of Greece is wrong, in which case why the Greek government doesnt do anything about it?
b. Or everything that we have been taught since high school right through the higher academic study is false in which case WHY is it false? WHY none comes here to correct our wrong ways? Can you imagine if the Greek educational system taught that the earth is flat? Wouldnt anyone react to it?
3rd And lastly I propose ANY non Greek scholar of ancient Greek to come to Greece and view the other side of the approach…it wont be as far from Ancient Greek as its believed….
Teleklos sorry to tell you but many notes for the pronounciation of the difthongs (how do you say δίφθογγοι in english?) are wrong. Im afraid that if you dont get a greek guy the voicemod will sound like drunk german tourist in Santorini.
Teleklos Archelaou,ειδωλον,Senior Member
Which dipthongs are wrong in your view Idomeneas? I’m almost at the point I don’t care though – a drunk german tourist is better than nothing
you should just go ahead and have a german tourist do it- hopelessly wrong enough and people will just sigh and move on with their lives. Face it guys, they didn’t say it like modern Greek nor exactly like any one pronounciation guide scholars follow- probably the Dorians were more guttural, and the ionians were much smoother with ringing sounds to their vowel contractions (the way that double consanance happpens with γγ to form what chinese pinyin describes as nu- the wringing ing/flat combination). Sounds always change over time, who knows what they sounded like. You want a real idea? Pronouce it correctly for modern greek with a little more tone to it; don’t make theories about language and you’ll be much closer.
Not that I can do it (I am an amateur Latinist – Greek I haven’t learned yet), but are you going to have pitch accents? Just curious.
Master of Puppets,Member /2003
But thats my query:
Why the greek academic community has a 180 degrees stance to all the others?
Why Greek kids are being taught one way and NONE from abroad reacts?
If we are wrong why none from the global academic community has not even stated anything to his Greek colleages?
Im baffled with the whole thing since its like we live in a ghetto with no communication with the outside world….
Tiberius Nero,Ambassador of Bartix,Member
The Greek academic community does NOT support that ancient Greek sounded like modern Greek. From the very first year in uni we were introduced to the correct way of pronounciation which does NOT 100% coincide with “Erasmian” accent. This mainly has to do with the matter of true diphthongs, since some diphthongs like “ei” and “ou”, in some environments, which have been written as EI and OY after the early 4th century, were not written thus before, but as E and O respectively. So “EINAI” was actually written “ENAI” before the spelling reforms. This shows they were not actually diphthongs, but Erasmian pronounciation again for reasons of convenience makes no distinction of these.
Foreign academicians don’t react, because they don’t care and why should they. And again I have no idea where you get the “noone has stated anything to his Greek colleagues”. They don’t need to, because if you have attended 4 years of Greek uni and actually attended even 10% of the classes on linguistics, Ancient Greek and epigraphy/palaeography/papyrology, you would know that Ancient Greek sounds a whole lot different and there is good evidence to support it.
The whole pronounciation of ancient Greek in a modern Greek environment is a matter of convenience; we use the same script, the same orthography and we are just too damn lazy to learn to pronounce what is perfectly Greek to us ( ) in a way that reminds most modern Greeks of Norwegian.
I hope that helps to clear things a bit.
Master of Puppets,Member /2003
So if I correctly understood the “EI” and “OU” is wrongly pronounced “EΪ” and “ΟΟΎ” by the foreign academic community? Like the word “ΗΠΠΕΙΣ” was written “ΗΠΠΕΣ”?
Then its wrong to pronounce it as “Hππεΐς”? So there is a disagreement at that topic?
Also is it OK for the Erasmian pronounciation to change things for its convenience (as you said) and not OK for us to do the same?
Despite Shigawire’s sad attempts to make fun of me (that sadly for him lowers himself) Im not bashing anyone….Im just trying to find the truth and the reasons for the current situation in Greece….
Tiberius Nero,Ambassador of Bartix,Member
In “Hippeis” actually yes, in that case of the ending of third declension nouns the “ei” is not a true diphthong and this is the reason you also have the spelling ΙΠΠΗΣ (as for the title in Aristophanes’ comedy). The -ei ending of verbs is actually a true diphthong on the other hand, pronounced correctly as -ei. OY as in the word meaning “no” is indeed a true diphthong correctly pronounced as “o-u”. -ou as the ending of 2nd declension nouns like “theou” is not a true diphtong as per the case of -ei above. You can also actually see the Doric version of this ending as a long “o”, an omega, in doric texts. “Theou” would have been written “ΘΕΟ” in Attic inscriptions before the spelling reforms. It takes a language historian to be able to tell where the diphthong is true and where not, if one doesn’t have ready access to the testimony of pre 4th century inscriptions, and since all greek texts since the 4th century up to now have used pretty much the same spelling convention, in a foreign academic context, scholars don’t make distinction of true and false diphthongs for reasons of convenience, because it isn’t easy to tell on the fly which of the two it is.
As for whether it is ok for us to ignore the rest of the world for our convenience, I really can’t say. Imo it would have been beneficiary for modern Greeks to adopt a stance of learners towards the ancient form of their language, which means to be ready to accept that it is a fundamentally different language, even though remarkably similar in more respects than any modern language is to its ancient counterpart (except Hebrew maybe). Most Greeks think that Ancient Greek is somehow part of their DNA and that simply needs to change, if more of us are indeed to learn the language in depth.
keravnos,memristor fan ,Member
Short answer about dipthongs…. I thought it had become a non issue by the time we talk about, with the dipthongs sounding as you heard them in the mod.
4th century started in 400 ( Right when Xenophon was taking arec little trip through the middle east along with 10000 other naturalists…) If I immitated compeletely Xenophon, I should probably use it entirely, and try to find out the false/true dipthong thing.
However this is 272. The language has changed , but only some. Not in its wording but in the way it was spoken. In fact the only obvious difference to the previous one is that there are pneumata (This doesn’t affect Greeks, since only non Greeks have troubles with the intonation that those pneumata were created to facilitate). Dipthongs also become double vowels. (they were single before, and became single again later, as I will show further down)
In fact if what I have read is correct, Native Greeks in the Hellenistic era tried to be MORE correct than they should. Hire Athenians to tutor their kids, have rhetoric classes in wherever Greeks could be found from Emporion to Baktria, and generally be SUPER correct, since, for the most part, correct pronounciation is what separated Hellenistic Aphentes, from subservient peoples. (Genetic exchanges being what they are in many cases… ) Hellenistic states, especially Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi were becoming very much Greek Supremacists, which sped up their downfall among other things. One of the other consequences is that they tried conciously to pronounce and accent everything (hence the change from IΠΠΗΣ to ΙΠΠΕΙΣ).
In the greek voicemod, as I pronounced it I should try to be a bit more brief in the ending of each and every word with a dipthong… aka EIS or OI, basically every word. However, not doing that was conscious as well. Having been in the military, and a sargeant to boot, I believe I have an “ear” as to how a military order should sound. So I lenghtened, just a bit all orders. We ‘re talking half a second, or lower. Shorter ones just didn’t sound right for a voicemod. Longer ones sounded right for my “grunt” ears. So the choice was a no brainer really.
To be able to further explain what diphtongs are about *to any non greek, or non greek educated reading this…
HIPPEIS you heard in the mod and its history…
HIPPES … (In the Gallic mod it is EPOS, EPONES, same Indoeuropean root)
HIPPEES, or in greek ΙΠΠΗΣ, (attic greek lenghtened e, to ee aka η )
HIPPEIS, (after the dipthong alteration TIBERIUS is talking about
HIPPIS, Hellenistic Koine and Biblical Greek pronounciation.. 150 BC and on..
IPPIS, … medieval and modern greek.
Tiberie, I had two ancient greek philologists friends of mine go through both the voicemod. One warned me of the dipthong thingie, but observed that by the time of EB, it would probably be a non issue. The other mentioned that at that time the Generals tried to sound like Orators, to shout to the world their 100% Hellenism roots and upbringing, even pronouncing subscripts in some cases, (as do I).
Thank you so very much about your input.
@Shigawhire, I know it is a given, still, thanks for the support,
@Kataphrakt, I wasn’t aiming at you or trying to be harsh in any way. Just wanted to intonate my position. I really don’t want you to think that there is any malice towards you, because there isn’t.
@Hellenes, all your points have been answered earlier. I hope this here little account answers the rest.
If you will permit a joke…
One thinks I sound harsh, the other that I sound like an Orator, not a warrior, hell I must be doing SOMETHING right.